I was on 100% prescribed hydros (100 to 130 mg/day) for a couple of years because of a neck condition. This was getting out of control, so I decided to stop it with the suboxone treatment and deal with the neck surgery. Went to see one of those "cash-only" doctors, who also insisted that I should pay cash for the med, as well (!). My hydros were insurance covered, so I didn't care for the projected nearly $600 cash every month. He prescribed 8 mg tapes, twice a day for a daily total of 16 mg for one week to start. This is when I started reading more about the med, so the cost, plus learning that its withdrawal can be very extended by comparison to hydros, I did not like that, just too many reasons not to do it, but without really enough info, unfortunately. So, after only three days of the prescribed twice a day 8 mg tapes, I decided to go the 4th day at half a tape (4 mg) twice a day, for a total 8 mg for the day) and felt just fine. The 5th day I went to only a 1/4 of a tape (2 mg) twice a day, for a total of 4 mg. for the day and felt just fine. The 6th day I only took one 1/4 (2 mg) and that was that, still feeling just fine. At this point I was mistakenly making comparisons with hydros, like: "who can possibly get physically addicted to anything with only three days of full prescription and a total of 5 1/2 days use"?
It took about three more days to confront reality. On the 4th day after I quit, I started to feel sick. Well, it's been 10 days now since I took the last 2 mg and I'm wondering whether this is ever going to end. It is nothing like the wild withdrawals from stopping the hydros of that pre-Sub start requirement, but it still bad enough to totally interfere with my life.
I'm sure hoping for a word of hope that the end should be near. How can taking ONLY HALF OF ONE WEEK prescription stay in your system for so long, much longer than the time I took the Sub itself. I've endured so many days that I don't want to go back to taper. I just want to know when can I expect the end to this.
Thanks
How long can suboxone withdrawals from very short use last?
Question posted by Reginalde on 7 June 2011
Last updated on 21 June 2011
4 Answers
Well im on day four and it still sucks. Suboxone has a half life of 36 hours so yes, it does stay longer. Therefore the first couple days are semi-bad, third day was worse for me. The time frame seems dofferent but it sounds like after about.five days it gets better. Im suprised they started you out so high, I swear these docs just dont understand. Good luck.
As all the others say, the withdrawals are from hydro's. My story is not that much different to yours, in respect that I spent a good couple of years messing about on pod tea before referring myself to a clinic where I could get some sort of help to come off it. I had been through the wds before and did not want to go through it again as bad. I was offered the choice between methadone and suboxone and chose suboxone as I figured I would be able to carry on working, less chance of addiction and less sedating. I lasted around a month on sub's at 8mg a day. They then caused me to have a bit of an episode where reality literally got turned on its head so I stopped. I went back to the clinic and got on methadone which I took at 40mg a day. I only did this for a couple of weeks and really didnt like it so decided to just go cold turkey.
I will say this. For the first five days I was fine. I felt less sedated without any wds. Then around day 5 it hit me, and I went into full blown wd's. The physical symptoms for me lasted around 10 days after this mainly, that is nausea, diarrhea, shivery sweating and the worst part for me, crawling skin. I am now on almost three weeks and they have all but gone. I still have periods of negativity and my sleep is poor but I kind of feel the worst is all over. I really would love to have a good nights sleep but from what I read this may still be a long way off.
Every day I feel better now. I am also aware that I am having to cope with two years bottled up emotions so am doing this one day at a time.
Wow! You went CT from Methadone? I've heard that it's the worst WD of all. You are pretty courageous. So, actually, the core of the story is not a WD protected under Suboxone, as mine was. It appears to me like you really hit a double foe, as the Suboxone at 8 mg/day would be in quite an active WD after a couple of weeks and that added to the new, Methadone WD. Wow!
It's a real tribute to the human body and mind architecture that people can go through with such pain without thinking of just ending it all, somehow.
Could you elaborate more on the "reality literally got turned on its head so I stopped" statement? During the only three days that I was on 8 mg twice a day, and even the following, tapering three days, I actually felt great and without much "sedation" feeling at all; I felt kind of like if I had gone back to "normal". I have become very curious about these weird things that I read that happen with Suboxone, both, during and after and, especially, the different and apparently not yet fully understood (by anybody) way that this drug is absorbed, processed and metabolized by our system, as compared to other drugs.
Well, in the overall picture, yes, we did go through kind of a similar experience, where only the details differed. I'm glad you and I are one heck of a lot better now.
My best
I hope fan will expound on the phenomena, "reality got turned on its head." my second day on suboxone, I had what started out as a panic attack but it went on and on. My original subs dr had warned me of "sensory illusions or hallucinations." this was what was happening, but I didn't know it. I tried to take a shower and kept feeling like I was going to faint, and the shower spray felt like gravel hitting me. I know most who answered here don't know me well enough to know my opiate use was not high or prolonged before I started subs. I was started in one 8 mg pill, probably should have only been given 2 or 4 mgs. The only time I had ever experienced wd was the 24 hour wait to get on subs. Called the dr and said, I feel high. He said that was impossible. I went to group that night and a new friend from group took 1 look at me and said, you don't look like you feel well.
I looked like a crackhead truly, and I knew it, but I was determined to attend group. The next day, I broke the subs into half a pill, made my bf sit there with me until 30 minutes after I took it. I was fine but had no idea what had really happened that second day, until I went back for my second monthly office visit. This is a rare occurrence for this to happen, usually because someone is on too high a dose. I adjusted and went to 12 mgs about 2 weeks later, and eventually tapered down and slowly off with no wd.
Yes, Pattishan, this is what really bothers me about Sub. It appears to contain so many issues and truly unknown potential reactions with the various humans that take it. I wonder what I would've eventually feel like, myself, had I continued taking them. At least, with pain pills, things are way more predictable, with a solid track record. But I must say that the Sub walked me through the worst of my pills WD and, had I known what I know now, I would've done what I now believe is the best: Take and taper that 7-day supply that I was initiated with to fit and perfectly taper exactly within 21 days. It should take the person through WD from -hydro's for sure- without any discomfort, like a miracle. That should be enough without extending Sub any longer, as from what I heard here, in my case I did not have WD from the very short usage Sub, but rather from the extended previous pain pills.
Would a 21-day start-taper (with an only 7-day Sub supply) plan show any Suboxone WD's if the full 7-day supply is consumed in this form? Because, if not, it appears to be what everybody should do to get out of whatever and to not get trapped in the Suboxone. Does this make any sense.
Boy, am I feeling better today.
The methadone bit only lasted a couple of weeks. There was barely chance for it to be in my system so I have never thought that I have detoxed from methadone or subs, but really just from the abuse of the pods. I was never planning to go on methadone long term as I know I would have probably been fighting a losing battle to come off that.
As for reality getting turned on its head. Well, I started on 2mg of sub's which at the time I felt wasn't holding me. So, I went back to the clinic twice more until eventually I got upped to 8mg. To be honest, I think the addictive me was just chasing the high. I was probably physically satisfied but the mental craving just wanted more. Anyway, I certainly got the high. People talk about how they find sub's stimulating and that is what happened. At the time, I did not realise what was happening, but each little pill was sending me higher and higher. At the start, I was pleasantly happy.
After a couple of weeks I was manic and just didnt realise. It just felt good.
Then it happened. I had a conversation with a friend about the end of the universe, as you do... We both agreed that if you think too hard about why or what is past there then it can become uncomfortable. At this point I had the most bizarre mental hallucination which explained to me that time, distance and our reality is nothing like how we visualise it. And that is the nearest I can get to explaining it. The main thing is that it all seemed so real. Even now, even though I can look back and see that at the time I was quite unwell, part of me wonders if what I saw was some sort of an epiphany.
I use the word 'epiphany' not lightly. Indeed, I have actually stolen the word off another report. I was that shocked with what had happened I went on the net to see if anyone else had had this sort of experience. I googled 'Buprenorphine strange thoughts' and the first result that came up was a report off someone years ago who had had a very similar experience to me. If you try this now, the first report is still the same one and his/her report of what happened is a lot more elequent and informative than mine.
I will say that I have met many people who sub's have been a life saver for. What happened to me was enough for me to never take them again.
I'm the initiator of this thread. Just a little summary here: I'm right now on day 29 from my last hydrocodone and on day 22 from the last 2mg piece of Suboxone that completed a 5-day use/taper to protect me from the wild initial hydro WD. Then, after the third day from the last Sub piece (and 11 days from the last hydro), I began to feel some mild WD and I was told that it was due to the previous hydro's rather than from the very short term Sub.
Well, at day 29, I'm feeling exactly as I was feeling when the Sub wore out. There was a point where I thought it was really getting better, but it all came back to bite me. Hardly any physical or mental energy and by 2:00pm my day is done; I feel weird. Love to work on cars, my wife’s car had a flat and then I left something on in my car that killed the battery. Typically, I take care of both with a smile, with one hand in my pocket and my eyes closed.
Now it’s a real, a major struggle to do it; I can hardly believe it. I do have better days, though, but today, day 29, clearly the worst day, so far. What gives? I want (need!) to get to many projects, both, mental and physical, but I just cannot even get started and when some problem must be resolved it's a real challenge. I cannot afford this.
Going back to how I did this, first, I do know that I tapered the Sub too fast (actually I was told so in this thread) by using only half the week supply that "Mr. cash-only" prescribed for me, in only five days, and tapering. Had I known what I know now, I would've created a master plan by chopping into little tiny pieces some of the 10 Sub tapes (8mg each) that I was left with (after the first three full blown 16mg days) into probably a 2 to 3 month supply of tiny pieces and I would've totally erased this lingering discomfort and energy crisis. Plus, it appears that such a small supply won't generate any WD. The first half of the week supply didn't.
So, here comes the bomb... no, just a question... I know that I'll probably hear "Don't you dare do that!!! ". If I do, now, what I should've started 20 days ago, meaning cutting micro pieces of one of those tapes and using them only as I need them and, since we're no longer masking any wild WD, a tiny piece should take care of at least half of this never ending mini nightmare, or just to get by. I have absolutely NO cravings for either one, but I do want some effective help to get me through to the end of this never-ending hydro WD (some say 6 months? Six months without being able to do the things I must do? I'll be heading to Oregon... )
Question 1: Would doing this totally or partially reverse all my progress so far regarding my receptors, endorphins, neurotransmitters, etc? I guess it might depend on how many "little pieces" and for how long.
Question 2: Would the hydro's WD continue its course towards its end unscathed by the small Sub presence, or would the Sub only postpone it longer?
Question 3: Would tiny amounts of Sub, as described, test positive for opiates?
I really must get on with my life, and quickly; I'm just looking for solutions.
Thanks to all. My best.
Dear Reginalde, both opiates and the suboxone tend to give some energy and pep, and some people have lingering fatigue and lack of motivation when either is stopped. If you feel like you need to take a tiny piece of that film, you can. Not really positive, but don't think it will set you back as far as withdrawal goes, not sure it will help that much either. I got on a low dose of antidepressant to help with the fatigue and did all that walking. That seemed to help me, it somehow reboots or resets the brain. The walking is not an overnight cure, but starts to improve the way you feel within a few days of regular walking. Our bodies love opiates and the brain just trickles the correct amount out when we need it. When we take opiate regularly, the signal sender goes offline, it will reboot, but takes time. The walking sends repeated signals to the brain to attempt to bypass or reboot the brain.
The antidepressant seemed to help me with this as well, but you know I was on subs alot longer than you were. I went into a depression form known as anhedonia when I first got on subs. Anhedonia means not being able to feel pleasure at all in anything. I always hesitate to mention this can happen to those who quit opiates or subs, but it does happen to some people. My subs counselor caught mine and sent me to the dr to get on an antidepressant . I knew it might happen again when I got to the last of the subs taper, so I automatically got back on it. To be fair, I have suffered from depression my whole life, so, I am prone to it. The meds work faster to getting me feeling better, talk therapy works better long term for me, at times I need both. Please talk to your doctor if you think depression/anhedonia may have set in. And please do keep us updated. Some mention something called PAWS or post acute withdrawal syndrome, which also may explain what is going on with you. I haven't seemed to have that myself, but have seen others say it can occur for the first year off and on after quitting opiates. Hope you start feeling better very very soon. Am texting from phone, does not show me your last comment while texting my comment. Will check it again for the other questions you asked about. Patti
Reginalde, suboxone will NOT test positive as an opiate, the only way the dr can check a subs patient's progress is for it NOT to test positive as an opiate. It will only test positive as bupenorphine. Most employers don't check for it, even probation offices don't tend to look for it. Examples of jobs that would include DOT jobs, trucking jobs, mining jobs, railroad jobs and hospital employment screens and pain management drs or any type of rehab clinic or methadone clinic. The smaller the dose, the quicker it will leave the brain and urine, 2mgs per day would test positive for bupe for abot 1 week to 10 days after last dose. It is a long acting med, it leaves quicker tho the less you are on. By taking a sliver of film here and there, you may be delaying the brain healing but it not proven, since you won't be taking it everyday. Not sure it will help as much as the antidepressant might tho.
Thanks for the quick response, Patti (text all that? Wow!)
I have read quite a few articles about PAWS and it seems to be more about the mental part. I don't seem to be feeling any mental confusion or abnormality, other than not wanting to do things as a consequence of my body aches and endurance limitation. In fact, now I feel my head, my thinking so clear, so aware of everything without that "clowd" in my head anymore. I want to do what I must do and I have a clear picture of the reward of getting it done, like, let's gooo! but my body won't allow me. Sometimes I need to force myself and I honestly end up out of breath, including the walk attempts. This is something totally new for me. I'm not young, but I still run upstairs here at home two steps at a time every single time; can't do that now. I will definitely be sharing this with my physician next visit. WD or not, this is absolutely unacceptable.
Needless to say, this has totally caught me by surprise. I was quite under the impression that in ten days this would've been behind. Ten years ago, I was on 4 to 6 Norcos a day for six months, then, three epidural injections on my neck took care of the pain on the left side generated from main nerve branch inflamation due to deformed / protruding discs (C5 and C7). No longer needing the pills, naively I went CT and gave myself four days of pure h..l, but at the 7th to 9th day it was like I had never taken anything. A new person. That's why I thought, well, this time I was taking 2 to 3 times the pills, and for a longer time because the disc damage travelled to the right of my neck (MRI is impressive and the epidurals did nothing this time) it'll be, say, 15 to 20 days tops. It scares me that this may stay forever (permanent damage).
What would be the answers to my questions on the previous post?
Thank you so much.
R
I wrote another entry to the thread, it said "posted", yet it didn't show up here. I wonder where it got posted...
Patti, when you refer to "antidepressant", do you refer to Benzos, or to SSRI meds (Zoloft, Prozac, etc)?
Thank you, my best.
R
Dear Reginalde, one more thing I can think of, please had dr give you a thorough check up with blood work and have them check for the condition low-t. I know long term subs use ( which I know you have not done) can cause low-t in men, it is possible that opiate use could too, won't hurt to have it checked. Each time a person takes opiates long enough to produce withdrawal, it takes longer and longer for the brain to reboot. Even tho you were taking them for a legitimate reason, it simply may be taking longer this time to reboot that system and if low-t kicked in too, would make it even take longer. I had forgotten you had an injury and surgery, so please be careful when attempting exercise. I can't see all info while trying to do this by phone, I do apologize. And I am just not positive on your other questions. I wish I could help more, I do offer you my support and prayers and hope things get better soon. Patti
Dear Patti, thanks for the extra effort that doing this posting exchange on the phone means (I happen to hate texting... ). Excuse me for asking again, when you said "antidepressants" did you refer to Benzos, or SSRI's (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.). I've seen so many people truly helped by SSRI's that I wonder if that's what I may need, myself.
I'm still taking Gabapentin (Neurontin) for the lingering restless leg syndrome. I also take Aleeve for the pain and both meds must be somehow working because I can really tell when they're wearing out. An SSRI may complement my "defense" meds.
I will keep posting here. I will definitelly inform here if I do wind up trying a tiny corner of a Sub tape, should the circumstances really force me to do so.
Thank you, Patti, and God bless you.
Reginalde
I have become a bit of an expert on surfing the web now finding cures for PAWS and looking up possible side effects for any medication that may help.
From what I can understand the best cure is time, and most will get better after a month or two. Worryingly, some people say that you can suffer from it for the rest of your life... although this is very very rare and I would imagine are for much more acute cases than ours.
For me, the worse bit is sleep now and a little bit of fatigue. Some days it feels better, and then the next it seems to get worse but I try to remember how I felt when I was in full blown w/ds.
Also I came across a website which I am now unable to find, but it was one mans experience of how he quit heroin and how he used the thomas recipe etc etc. But towards the end of the article the man started to talk about music and how it has helped him. He talked about wholesome music, i.e music that was not negative or to do with drugs etc. I have taken this on board and am now listening to a lot of seventies/eighties music which make me feel good and naturally 'pep' me up. A fine example of this is watching the rocky montage's on utube with the theme tune 'getting stronger'. Certainly gets my blood flowing and enables me to get up off my backside. Sounds silly, but just try it!!!
Finally the power of the mind is absolutely amazing. Throughout this hell of an experience I have realised that I am quite a depressed person. If I think of something negative, my brain loves nothing more than to dwell on it for a few minutes until I feel completely down. I am now however getting used to ousting these thoughts as quickly as they appear and replacing them with something positive.
You are over the worst mate, just gotta start to believe it now!!!
So sorry, just now saw the other question, I mean ssri, I am sensitive to them but can take either a low dose of amitriptyline or low dose of NON extended release fluoxetine which is generic Prozac.
Thanks, Patti. I was suspecting that it was, indeed, SSRI. I will ask the doctor if I still fill the same when I see him. I just wonder whether once you start on a SSRI you can never reverse, or quit? I'd believe that most people stay on it for life. Like I said before, I know a few people who were put on SSRI med and their change for the better was quite noticeable (although kind of off this topic here).
Thanks Patti and God bless.
R
Yes, wbafanclub, my main hope still is that there is an end to this, somewhere in my (hopefully near) future. Except for legs pain while in bed, today I woke up feeling much better, especially after I got up. So I'm now thinking "forget about those tiny pieces of Sub", but I also know that tomorrow may be as bad as yesterday (sounds like the song..LOL) and the wife will ask me "I need to ask you a big favor" and that'll put me back to square one. But, right now, I'm thinking positive, anyways. We'll see.
Regarding the music, funny that I discovered similarly. One thing that I knew that was happening when I was on the pills was that I had slowly become immune to music. Because I find that classical music of one's liking fills your every nerve and blood vessel (be it symphonic, opera and/or real jazz), music was my life, yet my interest and/or what it did to me had kind of waned, disappeared. Now, with my head clear again, it strikes me in such a manner that I can listen for hours and, like you, it makes me forget the discomfort. Earlier in the WD, when I was more emotional, it was hard to contain the emotion (i.e. tears) from the music. Now, no longer that emotionally unstable, I still have a real banquet with my friends Rachmanninoff, Puccini, Wagner, etc. And I do, too, spend lots of time watching/listening to great stuff (like my beloved Maria Callas... ) on uTube for the same reason. It totally takes one's mind away from the bad things.
Thanks for the encouragement and my best wishes go to you, too.
R
Laurie is right, you are really feeling wd from previous opiates. It was delayed by the subs use, so, the good news is that you won't have a extended wd like if you had stopped long term subs use. Most subs doctors won't file insurance, it is rare to find one who will. I had to pay cash too. I did get a paper rx to take to the pharmacy though. Treat the wd symptoms you have and if possible physically, do some mild but regular exercise. It will lessen both the duration and the severity of your symptoms by sending a signal to the brain to reboot the neurotransmitters, will produce endorphins that will help you feel better mentally and physically and will help regulate the eat-sleep-wake cycles. I am no athlete by any means, and hate exercise, but walking helped me come off subs after 2 1/w years. Google the Thomas recipe opiate withdrawal for a list of OTC meds and supplements that help with wd symptoms. Good luck, feel better soon, pattishan
Thanks to you, too, Pattishan, for the quick response; I really needed this info before I went crazy with the fear of bad-news Sub's potential weird-relapsing, etc. effects. The exercise sounds like a great idea, even when one of the symptoms I'm having is desire to do absolutely nothing, especially physical. - So, am I to conclude that there's no way that my body could've gotten physically dependent on the short term Suboxone?
Thanks for your kind wishes and I'll look into following your tips.
No, you are not wd'ing from subs, the wd you feel is from the previous opiate use. I know you probably feel fatigues, but try to do 10 minutes of walking at least twice a day, increasing that time every few days by a couple of minutes. Believe me, I am a strict couch potato, it helped me get off subs even with no withdrawal. A methadone patient here told me and he was right.
Thank you. Thank God, today I'm already feeling much better than yesterday, espacially in regards to body ache. One conclusion that I'm drawing from all this is that I was right in NOT attempting to go it alone, taper or CT, with the pain pills (I did think about it, though) as I was affraid that, considering the daily mg's I was consuming, it could've triggered some unexpected medical condition totally away from my control. IOW, considering how long this is lasting, it seems that the Sub protected me from some major, massive hydro WD.
I even feel like taking the walk...
Thanks, once again. You guys rock!
Reginalde, each person differs in the amount of damage done to the neurotransmitters in the brain, so, each person may need differing times to recover. If you are feeling better already, yay, that's a really good sign, but do the walking anyway. Keep your support system up and stay busy. If for any reason you feel like you might be slipping into depression, get that treated quickly. Not every person does, but many who quit opiates do, you may be lucky, walking may help prevent it.
Absolutely. I have several projects that I'm looking to get into, or to follow up. I'm already beginning to feel that "natural" enthusiasm, which means that my own endorphins (and not the pills) are getting me back to being myself.
Needless to repeat my appreciation for yours and Laurie's support. You guys have been so kind and knowledgeable that I'm truly impressed. God bless you both. My very best.
Hey Reginalde,
First of all Suboxone stays in the body for much longer than the hydro. So you won't feel the withdrawal for 3 to 5 days after the last dose. Secondly, if you stop the Suboxone too soon you will actually experience withdrawal from the previous opiate used such as the hydrocodone, not from the Suboxone. So you are now experiencing withdrawals from the hydrocodone. You can expect the worst of the withdrawals to last a week or so and then gradually get better. Though it feels like he_ _ now it will get better, I promise.
Best wishes,
Laurie
Thank you so much for the prompt response. Well, because my last hydro was taken May 21st (16 days ago) I would've never thought that their WD could still be around after over two weeks. I thought hydros WD were at the most 10 to 12 days long. But, this is better news because I was concerned about the Sub's weird potential affects when cut rather abruptly, such as possible "relapsing", as I've read in this forum. I'll take the hydro's WD anytime. Thanks again, Laurie.
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suboxone, opiate dependence, withdrawal
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- Suboxone uses and safety info
- Suboxone prescribing info & package insert (for Health Professionals)
- Side effects of Suboxone (detailed)
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